Betty Lou:

Welcome again to Dimension 5, I'm Betty Lou Varnum and our subject tonight is involved with two groups in our community. One is the Gay People's Alliance, the other is the Lesbian Alliance. If you have questions for the members of our panel, these are the numbers for you to call: 294-7307-- and we will accept station-to-station collect calls -- if you're calling from Des Moines, the number is 244-3738. And these are the members of our panel. They are, as I say, from our community, and the guests are Steven Court, Karen Moore, Dennis Brumm, Kay Scott, Connie Tanzo, and Jim Osler. Now, when we originally planned to do tonight's program, we had thought about commenting on the Marcus Welby program that ran from 9 to 10. It dealt with a very controversial issue. It has been protested against by members of the Gay People's Alliance, by members of the National Education Association, by the American Psychiatric Association, by numerous groups. It dealt with the molesting of a child. And, because we were going to be talking this evening, we asked that the members of our panel come early, and view the program, and give their reactions to it, what they felt was destructive or inaccurate about the subject as it was dealt with on Marcus Welby. If you saw that program, you would be interested not only in what your reactions were, but what the reactions of our guests are. Let me remind you about the numbers to call if you have questions: 294-7307; unless you're calling from Des Moines, and then it's 244-3738. Steven, what was your reaction to the program?

Steve:

Well, the thing I disliked most about it was that they didn't make any, or hardly any reference to the fact that this is not the way most homosexuals are. Not all homosexuals are child molesters, very few are...

Betty Lou:

You felt it was very strongly implied that the teacher who molested the teen age child was homosexual?

Steve:

Oh yeah, but also that was how all homosexuals are; it was allowed -- the impression that was how all homosexuals are -- was allowed to be present in a lot of viewers' minds.

Betty Lou:

Dennis?

Dennis:

I sort of think the whole program reinforced a lot of stereotypes and myths. This child had been molested, so everybody was really afraid he was going to become a homosexual, that was one of his big fears, too. If you're forcibly raped by someone, I think if anything that would turn you off to an experience, logically. Also, the program in general, I just don't feel like I can respond to it that much cause I just thought it was pretty bad. The melodrama was to try to play on your emotions and make you feel sorry for him, and I just have no other responses, myself.

Betty Lou:

Kay?

Kay:

Well, one of the things I thought was that even though it would be a bad experience and it would turn him off to homosexuality, by that they were implying that homosexuality was bad, and that he was supposed to be a man, he was all right, he was 'normal,' he was not like anyone else; he was not going to be homosexual, whereas, I would have liked them to approach it by saying 'It doesn't make any difference, what happened to you happened to you, and this man was sick, but that does not mean if you're going to be homosexual, you're going to be sick, too.' And they were approaching it that homosexuality is sick and therefore heterosexuality is the only norm.

Betty Lou:

Connie?

Connie:

At one point when the father was confronted with what had happened to his son, the father said, 'They should throw all those creeps in jail!' and there was no effort to make it clear that not all homosexuals should be thrown into jail simply because a child molester had committed a crime. And, to reinforce Kay's observation about the fear that the boy had, his biggest problem after the assault was his fear that there was something he had done to encourage the assault and that he might be 'queer' and if it went to court that people would think there was something wrong with him and the wrong with him was implied in the program that he himself had homosexual tendencies, may have encouraged the teacher, or that his friends would not respect him, they would begin to ridicule him because he was possibly gay.

Betty Lou:

Jim?

Jim:

Well, basically they never seemed to make the point that probably 98% of all the child molesting that is done is done by heterosexual men against little girls, and, like they said, this kid was afraid that everybody was going to think he was 'queer' or something, just because he was raped by this guy. The show itself was really pretty bad.

Betty Lou:

Karen?

Karen:

Well, I thought it was interesting that because the rape victim was a man, the person who raped him was a bad man, and the rape victim was, OK but if the victim had been a woman, they wouldn't say that is a bad man who raped you and that man is mentally ill. He's just a man getting off his sexual desires and everything. Even from a sexist/feminism point of view it was...

Betty Lou:

Do you really feel that the attitude of the public would have been that toward a child molester, [whether the victim was] boy or girl?

Karen:

A 14 year old girl, sure.

Connie:

Well, if the attitude were not such, that, even if they would consider that that man were ill, they would not automatically say, 'Let's throw all heterosexual men in jail because one girl was raped.'

Betty Lou:

But you feel the implication was there that because he was homosexual that homosexuality too was a disease, rather than this man was obviously mentally ill.

Connie:

Um hmm.

Karen:

Yeah.

Betty Lou:

We have questions that are coming in. Let me give you the numbers again, 294-7307; from Des Moines, 244-3738. Our viewers want to know 'why you as homosexuals should be any more upset by the Marcus Welby program than teachers should be because the man who did the molesting of the child in this case happened to be a teacher...'

Dennis:

We shouldn't, I don't think,...

Connie:

Well we should!...

Dennis:

They should be upset too....

Connie:

If we are going to go in the area of education I have found that they are hesitant to hire homosexuals, if you are a known open homosexual you will not receive the same consideration as a quote 'more normal member of the community'; there is immediately the fear when one states one's homosexuality that one will, if not directly assault the children, will encourage the children to follow a lifestyle which is not that which the parents would have them follow.

Betty Lou:

Do you think that is one of the more common beliefs that people have, that homosexuals do, that basically they will molest children, that they are child molesters?

Connie:

Well, they have children at a very impressionable age, and so most children have crushes on their teaches whether same sex or opposite sex and if the same sex teacher they have a crush on happens to be a lesbian or homosexual man, they may tend to follow that same lifestyle. If nothing else on a very practical level, parents might fear that their children will choose a lifestyle which will cause them much grief; they would like them to go the easier way.

Kay:

And parents do not fear as much when they have a heterosexual man teaching their young girls. They do not worry so much about their girls being assaulted as they seem to worry when they have a homosexual male or female teaching. Homosexuality implies something perverse to parents, whereas heterosexuality, even though something might happen in the classroom, does not imply that to parents.

Betty Lou:

Our viewers would like to know whether or not you are stating that you do not believe that there is anything abnormal about being homosexual.

Several:

No...

Steve:

No, there is nothing abnormal about being homosexual.

Betty Lou:

And you would all agree, and let's clear that out of the way now, you believe there is nothing abnormal in homosexuality?

Dennis:

Homosexuality is a viable lifestyle for someone to choose. You can have all the enrichment that a heterosexual can have, you have the same emotions, the same feelings, it's just that you're just directing them towards a member of your same sex.

Karen:

I also feel there's nothing too abnormal about heterosexuality....

[Laughter]

Betty Lou:

You're saying that any of the choices, you feel, are normal choices, whatever normal means.

Karen:

Whatever makes you feel good.

Betty Lou:

What was the reaction of your two groups to the vote that was taken by the American Psychological Association...

Steve:

Psychiatric Association...

Betty Lou:

Psychiatric Association, saying that they would no longer view homosexuality as a disease? You say, 'Rah,' or, 'About time!' or what?

Dennis:

It was a step in the right direction, any battle that's won is part of the overall struggle. There are still lots and lots and lots of battles to be won, here in Ames, and in Central Iowa, and across the country.

Kay:

Even in the Psychiatric Association, because there are many individual psychiatrists and psychologists who do not accept the view of the American Psychiatric Association that homosexuality is a viable lifestyle, so you've got to fight the individuals as well.

Betty Lou:

'Can gay people get along with non-gays?' We went through the business beforehand of trying to decide if every time the word 'homosexual' is used I should amplify it and say, 'or lesbian' and does the thing hold true to gays? Do you...

Karen:

Yes.

Dennis:

Gay women and gay men or gay people or ......

Betty Lou:

All right, so when the question is asked that way, I can ask it that way... I don't have to...? All right, 'Can gays get along with non gays?'

Jim:

We don't really have a choice; because right now they outnumber us! But we can ignore them...

Betty Lou:

Ideally would you like not, to......?

Jim:

No, no, some of my best friends are straight!

[Laughter]

Betty Lou:

All right, so you would all say that you do get along with non gays...?

Steve:

Yes.

Dennis:

Generally. There are specific individuals that we may not get along with because they may not accept us and they may become hostile towards us. But generally we can get along with people as long as they can accept us and get along with us.

Connie:

Underlying that question is a presumption that all gays have a lifestyle or a life that is different from quote 'non-gays,' and when I speak to classes on sexuality they want to know about the gay lifestyle and I really can't tell them. I mean, I have no specific knowledge about a quote 'gay lifestyle.' Some of my best friends, all of my best friends are probably gay, but very few friends within a specific lifestyle.

Steve:

Some of my best friends are in the dorm and I get along with them fine. Some of them.

Betty Lou:

'Are you people happy?'

[pause]

Kay:

Inflation has hit me terribly!

Karen:

The economy!

[More slightly snide aside remarks]

Betty Lou:

I think the viewer is interested in are you finding the burden of society's reaction...?

Steve:

Now that I realize I'm not sick, I'm happy.

Dennis:

It's important to realize you can grow out of this oppression that we have to face and we have to deal with in our everyday life. If you channel it the right ways it can be a growing thing for you, and you can learn a lot. It can become a valuable means of, just of growth, I guess.

Betty Lou:

Has it been more difficult for you since you publicly avowed that you're homosexual. Would it not be much easier for you to not come out and say it?

Jim:

I think that emotionally it's a lot easier, because you don't have to keep all these feelings inside of you hidden, and that takes up a lot of energy to keep all of these major feelings that you have hidden. There may be a few minor cases, or scattered cases, of, well, like being threatened with your life or something like that....

Steve:

Minor cases...

Jim:

Minor cases, yeah.

Betty Lou:

Are you serious about that? Have you had...?

Jim:

I've never had my life threatened, but I've had people threaten to beat me up....

Betty Lou:

Because...?

Jim:

Because I'm gay...

Betty Lou:

Because they disliked like you personally ...

Jim:

No.

Betty Lou:

...or because you're a homosexual?

Jim:

Because I'm gay.

Kay:

That's one very real fear, there are very real fears about being a homosexual. Plus it can happen to you that people know; they can threaten you, beat you up, you can possibly lose your job, although they would not come out and say in your firing notice that it was because you were a homosexual. You can be thrown out of where you live, you can lose friends. That's very important, if you've had friends for a long time, and you come out and say, 'I'm gay,' and suddenly you never see those people again. So there are very real fears, but like he said, keeping it hidden takes a lot more energy and hurts you a lot more, I think, in the long run.

Betty Lou:

Any other responses to the ,'Are gay people happy'? Is there a disservice in just the term 'gay'?

Connie:

What about the word 'happy'?

Betty Lou:

All right, well, we can deal with 'happy,' we played with that, but the business of, the term, just the word 'gay'?

Dennis:

I view that as a very positive word; there are so many negative words that society has thrown upon us, gay is a word that came out of homosexual culture itself, originally it had a double meaning, if someone thought another person might be a homosexual in the 50s when things were a lot were a lot worse than they are now, they could perhaps throw it into their conversation and the other person might pick up on it and that was like a secret code; so that's something we picked up on ourselves; generally that tends to imply to me, 'a happy homosexual' rather than just a 'homosexual' or any of the other negative words.

Connie:

There are political groups that would even take exception to the word gay. A feminist oriented group takes pride in the word lesbian because it has a history, an ancient history, and it implies something else, it implies more than a sexual definition, a lifestyle, a love of women, of women's rights, etc., so that for some people even the word gay is very frivolous and all of these words that we've used are inadequate to some extent.

Betty Lou:

[sorting through cards from viewers] We've dealt with that one, OK... 'Why is the homosexual life so transient?' our viewers want to know. By the way, I should mention we are going to have a change in panel members part of the way through, we're going to change some of the panelists, and that's just for your information, not as any kind of a [..?] All right, 'Why is the homosexual life so transient?'

[Pause]

Jim:

What's transient?

Betty Lou:

I don't know!

Connie:

Well, university communities are transient, that means there's a great turn around. I think they're probably addressing themselves to ,'Why do homosexual couples change their composition so frequently?' which, you could question whether or not that's a truth, for one thing.

Dennis:

I think this is an obvious stereotype. I think heterosexuals are just probably as transient as homosexuals, our whole society is very mobile at this time in history, and in that sense, we're all very transient. And there's a myth that homosexual 'couples' quote/endquote don't stick together or anything, which is a straight myth and is not necessarily true at all.

Jim:

But we do have a lot more pressures.

Dennis:

We do have a lot more pressures!

Connie:

Or supports, not necessarily pressures, they could be positive pressures such as economic or legal binds which make life easier for heterosexuals.

Dennis:

I'd like to know why the heterosexual divorce rate is so high, myself. Perhaps a lot of the viewers could answer that.

[Laughter]

Betty Lou:

'How do your parents react?'

[Strained uncomfortable laughter]

Steve:

Well,....

Betty Lou:

Why do you all, kind of laugh at that? Because you've been asked so much, or because...?

Jim:

Parents are a big problem.

Steve:

They're a problem.

Karen:

Yeah.

Jim:

I think that telling your parents is probably the worst thing you have to go through, because even though you think you may know what they're going to say, you can never be sure because this kind of question is usually never brought up before. So you're afraid that if you tell them you're gay, they're going to throw you out of the house and disown you forever, and all kinds of very major hassles. My parents, however, they've accepted it; I told them they didn't have any choice.

Betty Lou:

What about your parents' reaction?

Connie:

Actually I'm an orphan but I don't count, so I would like to address myself to your observation about the reaction of this group; if you look at the makeup of the group we're all fairly young and we've had that as a recent experience, telling parents, it's been a major thing that we're not very far away from, so it's still emotionally quite real, it's not like asking a 50 year old homosexual about parents because by that time, the problem has a much different perspective.

Betty Lou:

What about yours?

Kay:

Well, I feel it's a hard thing, but my parents have accepted it as much as they've accepted anything else I've told them that wasn't quite along the lines they had planned for me or whatever, but I don't view it as a major problem because I plan on just going on and living my life, and I do feel it's mostly the parents' problem to deal with their own reaction to it, how they feel about it. They're the ones that are going to have the most problems about it because they probably have all the stereotypes in their head.

Betty Lou:

Dennis?

Dennis:

Well, I could probably go on for hours, I do always seem to. My mother is dead, and when I told my father, we had a lot of hassles; I guess is the best way to put it -- that's putting it mildly, I was even threatened by him and some other things. He didn't respond well at all. That was two years ago, this has sort of gone over a little bit -- we get along somewhat better, but we still don't deal with this aspect at all. Whenever it's brought up, it's usually brought up by my father and he still reacts very negatively.

Betty Lou:

Karen?

Karen:

Well, I have the advantage of great distance, my parents live in Massachusetts, so I don't really have to deal with them too much. But when I was home last year at Christmas time, I told my sister, and I guess she freaked out, but I didn't know it at the time, so along about February I get this heartbreaking letter from my father, how, 'I need to seek help' and all this, and, 'Not even the lowliest of animals would do that.' Dear! So one of the counselors at the student counseling center here talked with my mother and kind of calmed her down a little bit, and I sent them some books, but we haven't talked about it at all; they don't even want to talk about sex at all. So, I'm kind of dreading going home this Christmas.

Betty Lou:

Steven?

Steve:

When they first found out, there was a feeling well, I'll get over it, eventually, it's just a phase. Finally they've accepted that it may not be a phase, or if it is I'm going to enjoy it. But, now I guess their biggest worry is because of a lot of the stereotypes that they think, they think I'm going to fall into a lot of pitfalls through life and have a lot of problems that they assume all homosexuals have.

Betty Lou:

You haven't mentioned, any of you, the one comment, that I would think that you would have had to cope with? And that is, 'What have I done?' 'What have I done wrong?'

Karen:

Oh yeah,....

Steve:

Yeah...

Dennis:

That happens!

Betty Lou:

Wouldn't that be one of the first responses?

Karen:

Yeah, 'We tried so hard to bring you up, in the right way...'

Betty Lou:

'What did I do wrong, it's obviously my fault because I didn't properly...'

Dennis:

Yes, yes....

Betty Lou:

Do you feel, any of you, that it was your parents' fault? Did they do anything wrong?

Dennis:

Fault? That's implying that something's wrong in the first place!

Betty Lou:

I'm quoting what they would probably say. So you're saying that it was not...

Dennis:

The theories that say homosexuals have dominate mothers and weak fathers just don't hold water at all, lots of heterosexuals have dominate mothers and weak fathers. Why do they turn out to be a heterosexual? No one has really explored into sexuality enough that I feel they can accurately say why anyone becomes anything sexually. It's amazing sometimes in our society that people are sexual at all, because we're fed so much negative stuff about sex from the time we're born.

Betty Lou:

We'll continue our discussion, if you have questions, 294-7307, from Des Moines, 244-3738, for our discussion of the Gay People's Alliance and the Lesbian Alliance, we'll be back after this message.

Ads, First Commercial Break

Betty Lou:

Our guests tonight are members of the Gay People's Alliance and the Lesbian Alliance. We were talking about the reaction of your parents when you told them that you were homosexual. Dennis, you wanted to say something more about parents whose children may come to them with that statement.

Dennis:

Yeah, I think that a lot of parents just don't know how to react at all and the best advice that I could give them, having been through it myself, the best thing to do is not to freak out, and to try to maintain communication with their children, that's a really important thing. I wish that in my case that had been what happened. I have a book that I've brought over from our office in the union, which is in Room 3. It's called 'Society and the Healthy Homosexual' and I'd recommend this for any parent whose child has told them they're gay, or any gay person, also, who's thinking about telling their parents, cause this has a lot of very effective steps in it. It's written by a psychiatrist, it has a lot of very good information. I wish I'd read it before I told my father.

Betty Lou:

And it's called 'Society and the Healthy Homosexual,' it's by Dr. George Weinberg. Good enough. We're having problems getting a shot of the particular book. OK. 'Do you believe in a gay marriage, and if so, could you be faithful to such a marriage?' Is there any state where homosexuals may legally marry?

Dennis:

Washington, now, I think?

Betty Lou:

State or D.C.?

Jim:

Neither one.

Betty Lou:

Oh.

[laughter]

Jim:

Well, in my mind marriage, a traditional marriage comes with all kinds of really oppressive things, like there's gotta be one who's gotta be really dominant, and make all the decisions, and somebody's gonna stay home and run the house and do all the little housewifey things.

Connie:

Well, I think that's a stereotypical concept of marriage, OK?

Jim:

But most of the marriages I've seen are like that.

Connie:

Well,...

Kay:

As far as gay people living together for a long period of time and planning on sharing their lives together, lots of people do.

Dennis:

It depends upon how you define marriage, more than anything else. I think it's important for gay people to realize that perhaps heterosexuality, in their roles, haven't worked out so well for them, so I don't think we should mimic their roles necessarily.

Betty Lou:

Is there any move on the part of the homosexual community to have marriages legalized and to get at least, uh,...?

Dennis:

The homosexual community is not unified in any specific goals, some aspects of it may be working for that, while others aren't. You can't really generalize on any issue.

Connie:

Before you can make marriage legal, you would have to first make homosexuality legal, and in most states there are statutes on the book, which make homosexuality illegal, so to make homosexual marriage legal is kind of jumping the gun. First we have to get the laws off the books.

Betty Lou:

This referring to the laws involving the rights of consenting adults?

Dennis:

The sodomy laws they're called. They also apply to heterosexuals as well, legally. Theoretically I think probably 95% of the people of this state are felons, because of the sexual behavior they engage in, because there's only one sexual act which is legal in this state, and it's only under one set of circumstances, which is marriage.

Betty Lou:

This is directed to the members of Lesbian Alliance. 'Do you want children? Do you ever have any feelings about not having a family?'

Karen:

Well, I hate kids. [laughter] But sometimes I have these motherhood fantasies, but they go away after short periods of time. I just really can't stand children.

Betty Lou:

OK, so this is not a loss as far as you are concerned.

Kay:

I don't think I have any real objections to children. I grew up in a large family, and a lot of the responsibility for the younger ones was on the older ones, and I was one of the older ones. So as far as the responsibility and the little nit picking things that you have to do when you have children, I'm not interested in that at all. Plus, I'm not interested in being a heterosexual in any way, shape, or form, which is what would have to happen if I were going to have a child.

Betty Lou:

Connie?

Connie:

I have three sons, and I think in that question there are almost three answers; there's the fact that even the term lesbian or homosexual does not preclude other kinds of sexual activity or commitments, it's simply something when once that appellation is thrown at somebody, you can never get away from it, [being a] 'homosexual,' as such. And being a lesbian does not preclude having children, caring for them, and maybe if not your own children, being involved in professions for which you can contribute to the life of a child without necessarily having your own to care for.

Betty Lou:

The question was directly worded for the Lesbian Alliance members, but, uh,...

Dennis:

Yeah, I'd like to know why they didn't ask the men, too. They're assuming that women want to have children only.

Betty Lou:

Right, well, I'm gonna ask it, put in that part for my question, so do you have a feeling about it?

Steve:

I kinda don't like, hate kids, too, but I think at some point I might like to have children, and then it's possible to adopt, in some cities it's possible to adopt. Right now it doesn't bother me a lot.

Betty Lou:

Dennis?

Dennis:

At this point in my life I don't think I'm financially secure enough to afford children or take on the responsibility, I'm still dealing with a lot of things just within myself. Perhaps sometime. I don't want to get caught in the trap once again of saying, 'I have to have children because I've always been told that that's what I have to have to fulfill me,' and I'm afraid that I might get caught in that trap. So, I can't speak for the future, but at this present time it's totally out of the question.

Betty Lou:

Jim?

Jim:

I'd like to have children eventually. I'm in a child oriented major at the university, and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't have kids, I really like kids!

Betty Lou:

So that, um,... are you speaking of adoption or are you speaking of having your own children?

Jim:

It probably would be adoption.

Betty Lou:

What are the, there are, as I understand it, changing attitudes on the part of the courts toward homosexual adoptions. Is this fairly widespread or is it still...?

Jim:

It's pretty hidden right now.

Connie:

I believe in Minneapolis there's a court case going on right now where two men wish to adopt a child and they're encountering some difficulties. They are, in some places, placing homosexual teenagers in homosexual foster homes, but that's as far as any trend has gone with more than one specific case.

Kay:

And as far as if you're a mother and a lesbian, getting custody of your children through the courts is very difficult. They set up impossible conditions, such as you can't live with the woman you love.

Connie:

Or you have to undergo rehabilitation, ....

Kay:

Right.

Connie:

...if you want to keep your children.

Kay:

Or they don't give them to you at all.

Betty Lou:

How did you realize that you were homosexual?

Dennis:

I think that that's a question, once again, I would throw back, 'How does anyone realize they're heterosexual?' to who's asking, assuming they are. For me personally, I had sexual awakenings when I was in puberty like almost everyone else I know, and my sexual impulses were predominantly directed toward members of the same sex, when I was 12. But unlike my heterosexual brothers and sisters, who were supposedly going along the 'normal route,' all of a sudden I realized everybody [would] thinks I'm 'queer' or something, and I put this great big wall, this emotional block, up in my mind, to try to protect myself, and that lasted for seven years, so I didn't really admit it to myself until I was 19, but I sort of originally realized it when I was 12.

Betty Lou:

Was this true for all of you, that the realization came fairly early?

Kay:

You don't realize that you're homosexual, you have feelings long before you even encounter the word or encounter the bad attitudes that society has about that word and the acts involved with it. But you have feelings for members of your same sex probably long before you realize that you're 'homosexual' and everything that that term implies, and then you go through the process of feeling that you're a bad person, and then having to work through that, and really say positively, 'I am a homosexual, and I feel good about that.' It's a very long process, but you have the feelings probably when you're a child.

Connie:

But I think one thing that every one here has said is somehow it's come from the outside, somehow certain kinds of behavior, you notice that other people are beginning to call you names or begin to suggest to you that you're somehow different, and I remember in my childhood before I knew I had any sexual feelings at all, simply because of being rather aggressive in baseball and football and being called things like 'dyke' or 'butch' and not having any concept what those words meant, and was simply behavior that was not appropriate to a little girl, and these words, and even the term 'homosexual,' they're words that are used like weapons, by peers or supervisors simply to make you behave in a way, the way everyone else behaves.

Steve:

Yeah, and the comments that you get are very sparse and [far] between and they're always bad, almost always bad. And so you either have trouble finding any identity for yourself, not really knowing what your identity is, or you assume that you have a bad identity, that you're bad because of it.

Dennis:

I think it's important for the viewers to also realize we're in the minority. There are lots and lots of people out there who are still dealing with it, they may be much older than us, they may never be able to completely come to grips with this just because of what society has said and done to them. And I think it's really a sad state of affairs when society can't accept diversity within itself.

Betty Lou:

'What type of lifelong relationships do most homosexuals seek, or do they seek lifelong relationships at all?'

Steve:

I don't know if we can speak for most homosexuals, as far as real feelings, we can only speak for ourselves.

Betty Lou:

We'll settle for that.

Steve:

All right, I want a lover eventually, a marriage, if you will, a long-term relationship.

Kay:

I hopefully feel I am in a long term relationship, and have been with Connie for over a year and a half. And we hope to make this live out our lives together.

Betty Lou:

So ideally it would be that, a lifelong, whatever they say...

Kay:

Commitment to each other, right.

Betty Lou:

Jim?

Jim:

I don't know if I really want a long term relationship, or if I've just been socialized into wanting some kind of a long term relationship. Because when you're growing up you see all these ads, practically everything you hear or have told to you is, 'You're going to grow up and you're going to raise a family, and when you're old and gray, you'll have all these loving grandchildren or whatever, and you'll never be alone,' which usually does not work in this country.

Betty Lou:

Karen?

Karen:

Well, I haven't really sat down and made up my mind that, 'This is what I'm going to do,' but sometimes I feel like I want to find a lover and live with her for the rest of my life in a very closed monogamous relationship, and other times I feel like I want to live with a group of women in a collective or something like that, and have a very open relationship. I think ideally that would be the best, and have my needs met by a group of people; men and women, too. ... I don't know, I'm still young, you know.

Betty Lou:

'Could you comment on the American Medical Association documented reports on the low levels of male hormones in homosexuals?'

[slight laughter]

Connie:

Is this homosexual males?

[more laughter]

Jim:

I thought I'd read reports just a little while ago that said they could not find any conclusive evidence that there was a difference in hormonal levels...

Dennis:

Yeah, there are documented reports which say that, too, that there's no...

Jim:

They don't know what they're talking about half the time.

Dennis:

We don't necessarily respect organizations which consider us sick. I don't think they deserve my respect, at least.

Connie:

Working at it from the other end, the injection of hormones has not converted anyone to heterosexuality, it has simply altered physical characteristics, it has not changed the emotional makeup of anyone.

Betty Lou:

All right, so you would discount the importance of that particular study.

Kay:

Or any studies that try to identify a physical or social cause for homosexuality.

Betty Lou:

So that we can discard all the questions that are stacked here that say, 'Do you believe that homosexuality is brought on in part by heredity or environment or both or neither?'

[laughter]

Betty Lou:

OK [? unintelligible over laughter].

Jim:

Well it seems to me like all the studies are being done on 'what causes homosexuality,' but I haven't heard of a study being done on 'what causes heterosexuality.' And they're always looking for a cause, like there was something wrong, that's the basic thing I don't like about these kinds of studies. They start out thinking something's wrong and they look for a cause.

Dennis:

Yeah, one of the basic assumptions there is heterosexuality is quote 'normal' because that's what other animals and things do. If you study other animals, there's homosexual behavior that's exhibited in all other mammals, particularly in primates, and often times this is when members of the opposite sex are available. So, it's obviously mammalian in heritage for us. It's just a basic potential that people have to be sexual, that's the important thing to realize.

Betty Lou:

All right, so, you're discounting environment, .....

Dennis:

We didn't say that.

Jim:

We don't know.

Betty Lou:

You're not accepting it as....

Dennis:

We didn't respond really to the question, we just said, 'What causes hetero....'

Betty Lou:

All right. But this question is asked a number of times, and I think that, ...

Steve:

There's a train of thought, a school of explanation, that you are born basically just sexual, bisexual if you will, but with no real tendency, and then you're socialized into heterosexuality because you're never really given the opportunity to see that homosexuality is possible. I guess that would be what I'd subscribe to, in answering that.

Dennis:

However, how does that hold true?; otherwise there wouldn't be homosexuals if that held true.

Connie:

There also might not be heterosexuals, so I discount both of those theories...

Dennis:

You can find objections to almost any theory, you know.

Connie:

We weren't addressing ourselves to that question because it's not that we don't believe that there are environmental and psychological factors influencing our development, it's just that the reason people want to know what in the environment, is so they can quote 'cure it,' not accepting it as a possible result naturally of the environment, both alternatives, heterosexual and homosexual activity.

Betty Lou:

All right, then I will pass along on that, and I will remind you that the numbers to call if you have questions, 294-7307, from Des Moines, 244-3738. We will be back after this message.

Ads, Second Commercial Break

Betty Lou:

Our guests tonight are members of the Gay People's Alliance and the Lesbian Alliance. We've changed two of the panelists, to my left is David Windom and Carolyn Czerna. Welcome to the panel, and going on with the questions, and we have a whole stack of them. 'How do homosexuals recognize each other? Do you have secret signals, does the wearing of an earring by a male have a meaning?' um, ....

Carolyn:

We have a secret handshake, but we can't disclose it over the air.

Betty Lou:

I'd rather you didn't and that's all right.

Dennis:

There is no particular way to tell if a person is a homosexual. There are signs that you can tell if someone perhaps is attracted to you, which are no different than if you are heterosexual, once again.

Betty Lou:

But there are no...

Dennis:

I don't think so....

Kay:

You can spend a lot of time guessing, and never really know for sure.

Jim:

I think the earring is directed in my direction. Just because I wear an earring, which a lot of people don't see, but sometimes they do....

Betty Lou:

I didn't know you were....

Jim:

I wear an earring because I wanna wear an earring, it doesn't make any difference which side I wear it on.

Betty Lou:

OK, but, so that , uh, you don't view that as significant?

Jim:

A lot of people wear earrings anymore...

Connie:

Yes.

Kay:

Yes.

Betty Lou:

'How do your religious beliefs allow for your homosexuality, or are you atheists?'

[laughter]

Kay:

Actually I believe in the Mother Goddess.

Betty Lou:

Do you, uh, is this a problem?

Kay:

Religion? Well, it was when I told my parents. In some ways my mother was as upset or more upset that I wasn't going to church anymore than [that] I was homosexual. I was raised as a Catholic and that was my decision to not go to church anymore. It was not because of my homosexuality but of many other things that I saw as not liking in the church.

Betty Lou:

Are there homosexuals, is there a place for the homosexual in the churches that there are organized now. Are some of the churches more responsive than others?

Dennis:

There are groups of homosexuals who got together and formed their own churches simply because traditional churches haven't met our needs. Although some churches seem to be 'liberalizing,' I don't know if it's only minor concessions they're making, but at least they're actively interested in the question now. For years during the Inquisition gay men were burned as faggots and gay women as witches, so things have changed somewhat.

Carolyn:

Not much though, especially in regular organized churches. When my father first found out that I was a lesbian, he immediately went to a priest and the priest said, 'Well, take her to a psychiatrist,' but because he was so freaked out by psychiatry, he didn't. Well, I think that a lot of churches have male supremacy, and both male homosexuals and lesbians are threatening to that.

Connie:

I think we may be stereotyping to some extent, just lumping all churches and all religions into organized religions because individual parishes within the Roman Catholic Church will vary in their interpretation and I believe there is nothing in my religion that disallows for homosexuality.

Betty Lou:

This question quotes two things that have been said. One is that ,'Mothers cannot keep their children.' The second statement was, 'Homosexuality is not abnormal.' OK, those are the statements, then the viewer goes on, 'Is it normal to give up your children for the love of another adult versus the love of your children?'

Kay:

Well, do you give up your children or are they taken away from you?

Connie:

And you see even if there's a custody case in which the custody is contested and both parents want the child, the mother does not have to be a quote 'active lesbian,' she simply has to 'be' a lesbian and that is a threat, a lever that the father will have at any time to take the case back to court, simply threatening that she was once, or that she has those tendencies. I think it's not a simple question, and unfortunately that's the way it's usually interpreted. What about when a woman gets a divorce and then remarries another man, that's not thought of 'giving up your children for the love of another man.'

Dennis:

A better question would be why do you have to give up any person you love. Why do you have to stop this relationship? I can think of no valid reason.

Connie:

And, if you give up custody are you giving up your children, because that means that every man who let's his wife have the custody of the children in a sense gives up his children and it would be better to stay married to someone you don't love, simply not to quote 'give up your children,' so that you do not really lose your children, you lose the close custodial relationship but you can maintain a relationship with your children without having custody of them.

Betty Lou:

Connie this question is directed to you , you mentioned that you do have children. 'How old are your sons, have you told them, does your husband help with them to understand you, or does he have negative attitudes?'

Connie:

I'd rather not discuss my ex-husband, but my sons are all very young, and they, at this point, have no particular fears about expression of love towards one sex or another, they are young. They're all under 8, and so as much as they're able to understand, they're familiar with words and love and tenderness, but I don't there has come a time yet to have an adult discussion about what this society thinks about homosexuality with them.

Betty Lou:

'Do you ever have any trouble with your employers because of your homosexuality?'

David:

Not yet.

Betty Lou:

Not yet!

Dennis:

Not yet.

Betty Lou:

This, undoubtedly, may be true for you because you're all relatively young, but has the tradition been that you have reason to perhaps fear that you will have trouble. Is it..... a concern to you?

Dennis:

I should hope in the future that things will be at such a point where you don't have to worry about loss of your job. In many cities across the country now, sexual orientation has been added to the human rights code, where it says you can't discriminate on the basis of sex, color, creed, race, religion, etc.. They've added sexual orientation. Minneapolis and St. Paul are two examples, fairly close, and hopefully, eventually the entire country will have this type of protection, cause we're a minority group just as any other minority group.

Carolyn:

Except that just because you have the law it doesn't mean it's going to be enforced, or that people are going to follow it. They could fire you on some clause like you didn't show up for work Thursday of last month or something. And the actual cause is because you happen to be a homosexual, but you couldn't prove that.

Dennis:

Still if the laws do change it's one positive step and hopefully that would lead to attitude change. It tends to be some of the pattern which has been created I think in the past.

Carolyn:

Yeah.

Betty Lou:

'What other sorts of discrimination do you encounter?' They refer specifically to jobs, schooling, and that sort of thing. You've already taken care of jobs. What about other sorts of discrimination?

Connie:

Social discrimination if you happen to be involved in what would be a marriage with a same sex partner, your partner is not automatically included as a husband or wife, may not even be introduced, may be totally ignored in a social setting simply because they don't know what to do. And you're not automatically related. If you should die, very elaborate wills have to be made out so that that partner would share in your life the way a marriage partner would share. There just aren't any vehicles, legally and economically, for expressing commitment.

Betty Lou:

Any other ways?

Dennis:

I'm afraid personally we're here on the island of the university which is a 'more liberal atmosphere,' perhaps we don't meet with as much hostility as people outside the university community might, so perhaps we can't talk that well about that.

Betty Lou:

Any other comments? [pause] 'Do you have any bitterness toward heterosexuals?'

Jim:

If there's any bitterness at all it would have to be a specific heterosexual who's done something to a gay person, because, OK, there have been instances where parents of gay people have gone to their employers or their schools and had them thrown out or, maybe, like gangs of queer beaters who get up maybe like four people to one person, which is really a masculine way of proving how butch you are and how much you're above the only person. That's the only kind of bitterness I feel, and not to heterosexuals as a whole.

Betty Lou:

Anyone else? [pause] 'How did you deal with the guilt feelings that were mentioned earlier, when you first started realizing that you were a homosexual?' you said, that there was a period one of you, I think [dennis], that there was a period when you felt very guilty about it.

Dennis:

I don't know if I said there was guilt or if I said I was afraid. I think, I think there was more fear than guilt in my case.

Betty Lou:

Well, either way, how did you....

Dennis:

When I was 19 and started deciding this was what I am I had to deal with it, I don't know, I positively re-enforced myself, I went out and met other gay people, talked about being gay, and just worked on making myself feel better about myself, and as I did that, the fear went away. For me...

Betty Lou:

Let's assume that perhaps this question is from someone who perhaps is experiencing guilt feelings. Do you have any suggestions to them about working their way through?

Dennis:

They can contact us, we act as a supportive organization, I think Lesbian Alliance does too. Our phone number is in the Daily, our phone in the union right now is 294-5237, and we have people there in evenings, if people want to call in just to talk, or anything, you don't have to commit yourself. We have meetings Sunday nights in Frisbie House, which is on Lincoln Way here in Ames. Perhaps you can talk about yours?

Kay:

We have a post office box, 1287, at the ISU Station, we also have meetings every Sunday night, which are usually advertised; that they can check the Daily and find out where those meetings are going to be.

Betty Lou:

'What are your attitudes towards bisexuals?'

Connie:

I am a bisexual, only it's been often said by people who claim to be bisexual they're not persecuted for their bisexuality, they're persecuted for the homosexual half, so even though the term lesbian comes from the outside, it's something I have to accept because it can be used as a threat against me. There is some feeling that saying you're a bisexual is a cop-out, that you're just afraid to go all the way and say, 'Oh, I am a homosexual.'

Betty Lou:

Any other responses?

Kay:

I think bisexuals really get the short end of it, because they don't have any organization, really, OK they get it from heterosexuals for their homosexual half, and they get it from homosexuals a lot of times for their from heterosexual half, and so they're really caught in the middle.

David:

But they put themselves in the middle, too.

Kay:

Do they?

Dennis:

Do they, by choice?

David:

They are in the middle, they don't put themselves there.

Dennis:

It's important to remember, too, that bisexuality isn't necessarily half this and half that; there are degrees of homosexuality and heterosexuality in every person. You may have a negligible amount of either one or you may be somewhere in the middle or somewhere on either side of the middle or the end.

Connie:

Well it does emphasize the sexual aspect of sexuality, rather than the intimate relating to another human being because you've grown to love that person, it emphasizes the bed aspect of sexuality.

Carolyn:

I think that bisexuality is the ideal, that everybody has certain aspects of homosexuality and heterosexuality in them, and as soon as any kind of oppression as far as sexism can be dealt with, then possibly everybody will be bisexual, and we'll feel free to relate to either sex.

Betty Lou:

'Would you prefer, any of you, to be heterosexual?'

Jim:

If I'd wanted to, I would have been by now.

Connie:

We would prefer to have the rights and privileges of heterosexuals, but...

Betty Lou:

But you don't wish that whatever the...

Connie:

That I was an entirely different person so I wouldn't receive any persecution for the person that I am? That's what's underlying that question.

Betty Lou:

This question dealt with, um, in part at least, 'Do you believe in God and the Bible, because if you do you're going against what the Bible says in that homosexuality is wrong'

Connie:

The Bible doesn't say that.

Jim:

The Bible has no relationship with God, anyway. The Bible was written by people, usually priest-kings who had a lot of authority and wanted to keep it that way. So they wrote all these things against people who wouldn't follow their will.

Connie:

Well, you're offending some people, cause some people do believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, no matter who wrote it, and I'm taking exception to the fact that it says anywhere in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong. I can't talk to the person who wrote that card, but if you can search out those passages in the original words, you can see that it's really left to original interpretation as to whether the Bible actually does say homosexuality is wrong.

Kay:

I believe one of the passages admonishes women from wearing red dresses and also from eating shrimp... and includes in that homosexuality...

Dennis:

Yeah, those are abominations.

Kay:

Abominations, yeah. Some people wear red dresses.... and eat shrimp!

Dennis:

Yeah, I would question anyone who does things exactly by the Bible, I don't think there is anyone who doesn't go against the Bible if you would take it literally and interpret it that way.

Betty Lou:

'How old were you when you had your first homosexual relationship? Was it with an older [person] or person of the same age?'

Jim:

Why not younger?

David:

I was 13 and the other person was younger than I was and initiated our relationship too, I didn't... as far as I can recall, I wasn't keeping score, exactly, but...

Betty Lou:

I think this goes back to the Welby program and what is implied there, but....

David:

My impression is that most people's first experiences are with someone close to the same age. I don't know, this isn't anything we've ever talked about, is it?

Kay:

My first experience was with a woman who was several years older than I am and I initiated that relationship, so if they're trying to get at any kind of cause and effect thing, there, I don't think they're going to find it.

Dennis:

In my case I'd been involved in gay liberation for almost a year before I even had had my first homosexual experience, so I was like 19 or 20 at the time.

Betty Lou:

This is for the women in the Lesbian Alliance. 'Does lesbianism have any relationship to the feminist movement? If so, what is it?'

Connie:

It has everything to do with the feminist movement, because if women had equal rights with men, lesbianism would not be an issue at all. I mean if women had a right to live and to make love with whom they wished to make love with, it would be an empty word, it would not be a threat.

Carolyn:

And in cases feminists have become political lesbians.